Hello, lovelies. Welcome to the Fat Joy podcast, where we talk each week about how to flourish
in an anti-fat world. I'm Sophia, a fat person and professional coach who loves talking to
other fat people about what it's like to live within oppressive systems that marginalize
our bodies and how we still dare to have the audacity and courage to reach towards our
collective liberation and embrace our joy. Please know this is an adult content podcast,
so there will be swears, we will be talking about harms we've experienced, and we will
be rebelling against diet culture, anti-fatness, ableism, racism, etc. If you'd like to support
the Fat Joy podcast and get bonus content as a thank you, please check us out at patreon.com
slash fat joy. I am so glad you're here with us. Enjoy. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to
the Fat Joy podcast. Hi, Lindley. Hi, lovelies. Lindley Ashline is my guest today and I'm
very excited. First of all, Lindley is wearing a fabulous sparkly top and has rainbow hair.
And second of all, Lindley, I was telling Lindley before we started that I have been following
her for years. Your newsletter, Lindley, the work that you do with photography is just
so important. And I'm so honored that you're here to talk about all of that with us. So
huge, huge welcome. Thank you. Thank you. I feel like occasionally people do fangirl
a little bit when I show up places these days. And it's always a bit of a surprise because
I'm just one person yelling into the void and it turns out the void is actually pretty
great. Right? I know. I know. I feel like that a lot too, because I kind of just, yeah,
I talk into a mic and then I put it out there and then you forget that people actually receive
it and it impacts them. And your work has definitely impacted me in a lot of ways. You're
even just the resources you put out to support other fat people. Like there you have an amazing
list. I actually just bought this recently from your site, a list of 112, I think it
might be even more now, um, health at every size, anti-diet, fat positive podcasts. Like
what an amazing, amazing resource. And I think we're on it now. I was like, Lindley, please
add us. Um, okay. Yay. So yeah. So anyway, so before I explain everything about you,
uh, could you please tell us about yourself? Who are you Lindley? Yeah, I'm Lindley Ashline.
I use she, her pronouns. Uh, I am a, uh, borderline super fat. So I'm a very fat person, um, but
I'm not at the very end of that spectrum. Um, cisgender white woman who lives outside
Seattle, Washington. And everything that I do, uh, is based around body liberation in
some way. Uh, I'm a photographer, I'm a writer, I'm an activist, I'm a consultant. Um, and
all of these things come back to at their core, the framework of fat liberation and
body liberation. Um, so I do a lot of health at every size work. I do a lot of, uh, sort
of consumer level advocacy in healthcare provider spaces for fat patients. Um, I'm often the
one who is kind of giving a reality check to thin white healthcare providers, um, because
I'm often the only fat person who has access to those spaces. Um, and so I'm, I'm sort
of an informal advisor. Um, I do, um, boudoir and portrait and small business photo sessions
here in Seattle. I sell stock photography. I know Sophia wants to talk about that for
sure. Um, and just a lot of different things. I have a short attention span, so this works
really well for me. I love that. Are you also a Gemini like I am? I'm not, I'm a Cancer.
You're a Cancer. Okay. Okay. I always blame my, um, short attention span and my desire
to do like lots of shiny new things on being a Gemini. So maybe Cancer has a little bit
of that. I don't know. I feel like, I feel like cancers are all feelings all the time.
And so, so this lets me sort of put my feelings in lots of different, I have a lot of feelings
so I get to spread them around. That's perfect. I love it. I love it. So, Lunely, what has
your journey been with the word fat, especially, I love what you just said that every aspect
of your life now is involved in fat activism in some way. And I, but I imagine it wasn't
always like that. So how did you, what's been your journey? No. Uh, so I was actually an
average size kid. And so, um, uh, in sort of the, both in the social justice world, and in the fat
community, we talk about the concept of privilege. And if you're listening to this podcast, I
suspect that you're already familiar with the basics of that. Um, but I had the privilege
of not being a fat child. I did not have people putting me on diets as a child. I did not
people shaming me about my body. And so at puberty, suddenly I grew out as well as up,
and suddenly I looked like every other woman in my family. My genetic heritage kicked in,
and suddenly I looked like the German puss as I was and am. And so, you know, with a
200 years in between after immigrating here. But suddenly my body was fat, and my body
was fat. And as a child who didn't have a lot of exposure to pop culture, it was a real
shock because I suddenly started absorbing those messages and discovering they were aimed
at me. And so just like all of us, I absorbed those messages, and I had a lot of things
to take apart later. So I'm going to name a clothing size, a US clothing size, so content
note for that for folks who are listening. At the time that I graduated high school,
I was about a US 18. Which, looking back on that now, I'm like, oh, that's average size.
That wasn't all that bad. But at the time it was very difficult for me to find clothing.
This was really a little bit before internet shopping was a thing. And so I felt very set
apart by my size, even though it was a pretty typical American size. And I had absorbed
so much shame around that. And I dieted as a young adult, and I flagellated myself in
all the ways that we're encouraged to do. And temporarily had some pretty disordered
eating habits because I was dieting really hard. And I was actually very lucky. My body
did not, I did not develop, I didn't wait cycle for long enough through dieting because
my body said, that's nice. We're going to stay more or less the same way we are, no
matter what you're doing. And at the time that was very frustrating. But in hindsight,
I was very lucky because we know scientifically that weight cycling can be devastating for
the human body. And so my body protected me in a way that was also, that I was very lucky.
So I've been fat my whole adult life. But of course, as a young adult, I would never
have identified with that word. But I kind of went from zero to relatively radical pretty
fast in about 2007, 2008. I had been on LiveJournal for many years.
Yes, LiveJournal.
Yeah. Remember LiveJournal?
Yeah, I do. I do.
And I ran across this LiveJournal community called Fat Shenista, which it turns out, I
was reading the other day a book called Fat Activism by Charlotte Cooper, that traces
the whole history of the fat activism movement. And that LiveJournal community is in there.
So it was formative for a lot of people. But that was my first exposure to like outset
of the day photos. And suddenly here were all these fat, primarily cis women who were
trendy and fashionable and didn't hide their bodies. And I was wearing baggy clothing
and avoiding horizontal stripes. And again, all those things that a quote good unquote
fat person will do. And it was just this absolute, again, another shock to the system that there
were people who didn't buy into this shame framework.
And so even though I am not a person who is particularly interested in fashion or in clothing,
I have a lot of sensory needs in my life. And so my ideal clothing is just soft and
comfortable. But suddenly, suddenly I realized that I could have clothing options. And I
was allowed to choose things that I thought were attractive, that I liked on me. And so
from there, I started following fat activist blogs. Kate Hardy and Mary Ann Kirby were
both very formative for me at the time. And from there, I just... Note that I wasn't posting
anything. I was just lurking, which is really common. So in that sort of education stage,
I was just absorbing. I was reading. I was reading the science, the science behind bodies
and weight. I was reading the studies and why dieting doesn't work and about fat liberation
and what would later become sort of body positivity and all these things, just absorbing it.
Yeah. How is it making you feel? Starting to have that realizations and having the wool
pulled off a little bit.
Well, to come over to fat joy for a second, I started realizing that I could have joy
in my own body. Like these little snippets through finding an outfit that I really liked
on me and photographing it and liking the picture that I saw. But also, honestly, mostly
I just really got mad because I had lost all that time. And mind you, I was 27 or 28 at
the time. I was pretty young. I hadn't lost that much time compared to people who have
spent their whole lives surrounded by this. But I got so mad on my own behalf and on behalf
of everybody who has been affected by this for their whole lives and who has been sad
and miserable and deprived and not able to access the joy of a good meal or the joy of
eating in community or the joy of being in community or the joy of doing anything else
in our bodies because we've been told that that's bad.
And I've talked a lot in some other contexts about it, so I won't go into a huge amount
of detail here. But when I learned that fat phobia and weight stigma are offshoots of
racism, that was again, another of these absolute shocks. And I just had no idea. And that
was another point where I just got really mad. So anger isn't an emotion we consider
attractive, but it has been this very fierce, searing emotion that has driven a lot of my
own activism that drove me to start my own business and that has driven me to make space
in my own life for joy because of this anger and this, you can't stop me.
Screw you. Screw you. I'm making space in my own life for this and there's nothing you
can do about it.
Yep. Yep. I had you read a guest the other day and she was like, my joy is rebellious.
I'm like, yeah, it is. Amazing. Wow. So this started happening for you around 27, 28. That's
amazing. And so you were absorbing, you're kind of lurking. And then when came the explosion?
Well, I guess after a couple of years, I started tentatively putting out my own little outfit
of the day photos and just like dipping a toe into speaking myself in one way or another.
And when I'm saying speaking, I mean, just like I started a Tumblr and I started putting
outfit of the day photos on it. And I started participating in discussions and I started
just, like I said, sort of putting my toe out a little. But it wasn't until about 2015
that I had ended up, I had moved across the country from the East Coast in part to take
this job, this full-time career corporate job that was supposed to be the dream job.
It was supposed to be the one I was going to stay at for 20 years. And it was a disaster.
It was terrible and toxic. And I was being mistreated in my department. And I said, you
know what? I'm done. I'm done. I also didn't know at the time, but I had figured out since
that I'm also autistic. And so not being able to work in a schedule that was good for my
body and brain and not being able to have my own sensory environment and so on was taking
a toll that I didn't, I was always extremely stressed and I didn't know why. So there was
also that going on. And I just said, I can't, I can't. I'm done with the corporate world.
I can't do this anymore. And once again, I want to note that this concept of privilege,
I had the ability because I have a partner who is our primary income earner. I was able
to jump into my own business. And I try to talk about that every time I talk about my
story because it's so important to acknowledge that. But I sat down with my husband and I
said, Hey, if I dive off into my own thing, you know, would you be okay with that? And
he's been very supportive. And so I did in 2016, I think was when I jumped fully into
it. And, and that, that my cancer feelings and my anger and that had been driving me
was part of the decisions I made at the time to do photography and to work primarily with
fat folks and, and to, to have an active in the component to this work. Because, because
I knew right away that, that there was this, you know, market gap. If you, and now it has
changed since then somewhat. It is now possible to find, to find a fat positive photographer
if you're willing to travel. It is now possible to find some kind of body positive photographer
in at least in the U S in almost every major city, there's somebody, but at the time there
was just nothing. And, and so not only was I of course looking for a business niche that,
that I could sustainably have a business in. But also I knew immediately I wanted to work
with fat folks because this is a lived experience that I also have. We have this in common.
I know how fat bodies move and function. And, and I wanted to bring that, you know, that's
kind of safe experience to fat folks. Because if you look at the mainstream photography
industry, it's extremely anti-fat. It's extremely like into aspirational bodies and, and you
know, it's very fat phobic. And so, so those things that had been driving me this whole
time sort of clicked into place. And that was when I really started speaking out. Because
on a practical level, I had social media channels and I needed something to say.
Yep. Yep. Amazing. Wow. And, and your business started to grow, I imagine. And yeah. When
did you start to break into consulting? I don't know if I know that much as much about
that side of what you do.
Oh, okay. So, so I sort of started purely with, with Boudoir in Portraits photography
and things have sort of added on over time, just as, as the need has arisen or as people
have asked for them. So in 2017, I started doing stock photography. In my corporate career,
I had, I had ended up in a marketing department. I survived a layoff as a corporate writer
and I had never done any marketing. And I ended up getting sort of shoved over into
a marketing department because no one, no one knew what to do with me. I'm like, okay,
fine. Just, just put me over in marketing. And so I learned marketing like sort of, sort
of on the fly. So, so I, you know, had been the one often who was picking stock photos,
who was finding, if you're not familiar with stock photos, they're the photos that, that
people use, often people in marketing, small business people and so on, use to, to have
images for their business. Because unless you're like Coca-Cola or something, you're
normally not hiring a photographer to create photos for a marketing campaign. Usually there's
somebody who was going out and picking those from a stock photo site. And the people who
create those photos are really only creating thin white people's photos for those commercial
uses. And so again, I got mad because Getty had launched this Getty images. I had launched
this stock photo collection that was supposed to be like a size inclusive collection or
a body positive collection. And the photos were very nice, good quality, of course, because
it's Getty. They're, they're, you know, the, the foremost stock photo agency. But all of
these photos were of like size 10 to 12 US people who were, who were, they looked like
models because they are models. And, and so, you know, they all had perfect teeth and Photoshop
skin and so on. And they weren't, and they were still below the average size of people
in the US. And this was supposed to be inclusive. And so again, I got mad and was like, well,
I can do that and do it and do it more inclusively. So, so that was how we had it on the stock
photos. And then let's see, that was also about the time I started getting involved
in, like I said, healthcare provider spaces, because I had ended up knowing a number of
people who were health at every size, therapists and dietitians. And they started adding me
to their Facebook groups, their provider groups. And I was very clear that, you know, I'm a
photographer with an English degree. I'm not a clinician. I'm not a healthcare provider.
But if you want me in here, okay. Oh, and so as I spent time in these Facebook groups,
I started seeing things from like, Oh, um, okay, but let me tell you how that's actually
going to come across to your fat patients. And maybe, maybe if, okay, if you phrase this
this way, this is going to do damage. Why don't we rethink this?
Almost like a sensitivity reader, but for those Facebook groups. That's so interesting.
Yeah. I've been doing some of that in the last couple of years as well. Oh, that's great.
I've thought a lot about that. I'm also creative writing coach. And so I'm always like watching
for stuff like that. And I was, I actually, I didn't, I'm very glad to hear that there
are people like you who specialize in reading for body diversity rather than what a lot
of people are reading for is like ableism or racism or that kind of stereotyping, but
less so about body size. So that's great, Lindley. I'm so happy to hear that. I will
add you to my list of like people to reach out to. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And, you know,
I'm always happy to talk about any of these things as well. Anybody who's listening, you
know, please feel free to, please feel free to reach out if you want to know more about
doing any of these lines of work, uh, because, because they're all needed. Uh, but as I,
as I became more of a known presence in these provider communities, uh, gradually people
started reaching out and saying, Hey, uh, can you come to a workshop, uh, at my dietitian
practice, um, on zoom and, and talk to me about what we should be doing in our practice
or can I grab an hour on your calendar? And, and I wouldn't need to talk through a situation
I have with a few clients where they have a lived experience of being very fat and I
don't, and I want to make sure that I'm not hurting them, you know? And, and so it has,
each thing has sort of built on the next. Uh, and then, then, so when, when those folks
write books, because I'm a known quantity in that community, uh, they go, Oh, okay,
let me go talk to Lindley and see if she's got availability for this. And so, uh, you
know, I'm also a controversial figure in those communities. And as someone who grew up, as
someone who grew up Southern in the Southern us and, and who, uh, who had to figure out
how to feel and express anger as an adult, um, this whole anger thing was very new. Uh,
and so, so I've done a lot of therapy work, uh, to be, you know, to be very honest and
clear. Like I wasn't born knowing how to talk about there's this societal thing that sucks
and needs to change. It's a, it's been a matter of practice and therapy. Um, so, so this,
this expression of anger, you know, it was very, at the time was very new when I started
doing, feeling and doing activism around it. But, and, and I guess that's why it's such
a driving force because it's, it's different and this is what caused it. But, but when
you are, especially when you are neurodivergent, um, and you are also, um, again, I am white,
and I am also very fat. Um, my lived experience is very different from most people who were
in sin or average sized bodies. And when you are speaking out in especially enclosed communities
and groups where you are the only one who was saying, Ooh, um, there's pushback and
there's, you know, some people really are ready to hear that. And some people are really
really not. Oh, and so, yeah. So 50% of the, of the Hayes healthcare provider community
thinks I'm great. And the other half can't see me. And that's, that's so interesting.
Even the health at every size community. Hmm. You know, any people there really want to
do well. Um, but it's really easy, just like with any other area of social justice, it's
really easy to say you want to do well. And it's really difficult, like genuinely difficult
when someone who is a marginalized person, especially when we're talking about provider
patient levels of power differentials, it's really hard to have someone who you are used
to having way below you in the hierarchy, uh, professionally, personally, whatever,
it's hard to give up that some of that power. And it's really hard to do it when that person
is telling you that you're wrong. It's so interesting. They're literally yesterday.
One of my best friends was having this, she'd gone out with this guy a couple of times and
he was mansplaining. And this is a guy who she dated. She went on these dates with because
he said, and he was very educated around liberation and anti-oppression. And on their first date,
they talked to all about the patriarchy. But the moment she told him, Hey, you're actually
exhibiting patriarchy right now in these conversations because you keep mansplaining and talking
over me. He was out. Even someone who is like so informed and claimed to be a feminist and
anti-patriarchy and all of that. And I mean, I've lost family, I've lost friends and it's,
it's hard to, and it's, yeah. And I don't blame people. It's really hard to open and
be curious when you're, your power and your privilege are challenged by someone who you
view as perhaps lesser than, or especially with fatness, I find so many people view it
as a choice. So therefore they shouldn't have to listen to anything I say because I'm just
making a bad choice. Right? Yeah. And, and healthcare providers specifically have been
so set up from med school on. Yeah. And so, so they have such a, they have such a burden
of beliefs to unpack and unload on top of the indoctrination that we all get on top
of what we're all told, you know, from the, from the moment we're born. Because we know
that even three and four year olds have, have negative opinions of fat bodies, which if
you want to be depressed, there's something to be depressed about. But, but on top of
that, then, then their entire education has, has taught them things that aren't necessarily
evidence based and, and no matter just like, just like how we all feel about bodies of
color. And, and when I say we all, I'm using that judiciously, I'm aware that not everyone
listening to this is white, but it is, it's certainly possible to have internalized, internalized
anti-blackness and internalized racism, no matter what your ethnicity is. And so, you
know, I want to be clear what I'm saying there, but, but we all have that to unpack. And I
have, I have messed up. I mess up all the time. I do. I get called out for it. I apologize.
I try to do better. Like we all have learning opportunities in our lives and we're not always
going to handle it in the perfect manner because we also have to learn how to learn. And, and
the more, the more the messages that we have absorbed over time about how we don't have
anything to learn from another group of people or that we're, you know, secretly or not so
secretly better than that other group for whatever reason, it's easy not to even be
aware of how much of that you're holding onto. And so, so we, we all have to figure it out
and learn and apologize and do better. And it's always a process. Yeah. It's so true.
I love that you named that. I feel that too. I have, I have messed up in some very big
ways and it's always hard being called in and, and then it's like, okay, well, this
is the learning and here we go. You know, this is the pain of it, the mess, but then
the repair we can clean up, we can apologize and we can move forward. And it makes, I don't
know, it feels, it feels worth it. Cause the alternative is to me, the alternative would
be to ignore that I'm doing harm and then, and then what? Just live in a strange bubble
of unawareness and unconsciousness, which is not at all what I'm interested in. So yeah,
yeah. Wow. And so that's so interesting about the consulting with health providers. I think
that's so great. Any health provider whose heart and mind you can open is worth it because
it really is. I mean, I see this constantly in my socials cause I follow obviously a lot
of fat people and always Dr. Day is like the most stressful it is for me. And so that's,
that's such great work that you're doing there too, Lindley. I'm so glad we got to hear about
that. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And it has begun extending outside just healthcare providers
too, which is really cool. I've done some, some work with coaches, another photographer
actually, which was really cool, who wanted to expand their, expand their audience and,
and start sort of deliberately advertising to fat folks and, but, but they're not fat.
And so it's just like, okay, how do I do this in a way that's authentic while not appropriating
that, that lived experience, but also making it a safe experience, you know? And, and,
and yeah, I'm trying to think who else, somebody else in an entirely unrelated, theoretically
unrelated, you know, everything is related in some way because our bodies go with us
everywhere. But, but yeah, finding these common threads and, and for people who just want
to be good to their clients and their customers, it's really cool. Oh, so good. It's so good.
I'm, you're filling me with hope because most of the days I live with rage. So when you're
talking about how people are reaching out to you, especially non-fat people who are
wanting to create safe spaces for all body sizes, that is, oh, that is freaking hopeful.
So amazing. Yay. I do want to touch into stock photography because I think this is where,
this is where I first heard about you. It sounds like this is also what you've been
doing the longest. And I remember going to your website and I was looking, cause this
is back in, oh gosh, so like 20, actually prior to when you were starting like 2015,
2016, I was looking for images for my website cause I was kind of starting my, at that time
it was Curvillicious Ladies. I'm very embarrassed. Business. I didn't really know the whole,
I was in my mid thirties when I kind of found the words and found fat liberation. Before
that it was like through the door of body positivity and then became fat lib. But yeah,
your stock photography is, and you had, it was, it was, I was, I remember going through
your website and it was the first time really, Lindley, that I had seen fat bodies in like
work settings, like, like where I like, like it could have been me, you know, and fat bodies.
Oh, you had some beautiful like beach and water and lake photos. And it was, I, it was
so powerful to see those images. And yeah, I've never forgotten that. And there was one
woman, oh, I shouldn't, I don't actually know if they identify as a woman, but there's one
person who presented, looked female to my eyes, had this really funky pixie short hair.
And I was like, and I think that motivated me to get my hair pixie short. So there were
these, all these things where it was like that whole, like when you see it, you suddenly
know that there are options. And it was, it was really, it was so powerful. Again, I have
a, I have a, I'm not ever in that I have like zero memory, but I remember those photos.
They've always stuck with me for like 10 years now almost. So yeah, that, that, yeah. And
I knew exactly which ones because yeah, from your description. Yeah. It was vivid. I knew
exactly which ones you meant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And people do, people do go use the
stock photo archives as, as exposure therapy and as for, for drawing inspiration, like
people, people will go in and use it as posing, posing examples for artwork. Like how does
a, how does a fat elbow look when it's in this position? They'll go and browse until
they find that, which is something I had never, that had never even occurred to me. How cool
is that? That's so cool. Cause I've gone to like unsplash the other kind of stock
photographers that I used when I was in marketing. And I think I went recently and I was trying
to see if there were, was body diversity or fat bodies. And there was a little bit, but
there wasn't a lot. It certainly wasn't like what you have on your site. So I'm really
curious about the stock photography piece in terms of the, cause I remember, and again,
this is going, my memory is terrible, but I think it was kind of, as you were building
it, there was a real expense to it. And I remember, cause I've gotten your newsletter
for years. I think you were talking in your newsletter about the impact of this financial
expenditure to do this thing that you felt so powerfully about. And I remembered, and
I still to this day, like, I think this is true of a lot of activism work. It costs money
and yet there's often not a lot back. So is it okay to talk a little bit about that tension?
Yeah. Yeah. I've always been really open about that because I do think it's important to
talk about, because we're so used to things appearing from corporations that it's, it
can be, it can be really weird. Like it can feel incoherent when activists want money
for what they do. When people ask activists, artists, small business people of all kinds,
it can be, like I said, it can be kind of disconcerting because we assume that people
do that for the love of it. And we, and we just assume, like subconsciously, we assume
that that is being funded in some way, that it's grant funded or it's, or, oh, they have
a, they have like a nice polished web presence. So clearly they're making good money or whatever.
And so it can feel really weird to, and it makes, we can think of people who say straight
up, this costs me money and resources to do, I need resources to do it. It's easy to think
of those people as being pushy or mercenary. And this is something that I've had to work
on in myself too. You know, again, we all have these things to learn because it does
cost money. So for doing these stock photos, there are the standard kind of photography
expenses. Usually I don't need to rent a venue, but every once in a while I need to, I need
to pay somebody to use their yoga studio or something. There's, there's the, there's travel
costs. I offer my models because it's really important to me that nobody gets exploited
in this process. Because if I'm, if I'm taking advantage of someone to produce this work,
then not only is it really hypocritical, but then, I don't know, I'm not a particularly
woo person, but that energy is going to carry through if I'm not treating people well. And
from a purely business standpoint, from an extremely non-woof standpoint, your reputation
is important as a business. And if I'm going around mistreating people or not compensating
them, that affects my reputation in the end. And so, so, so, you know, depending on how
you want to look at that energy, either way it's energy. And so, so I offer my models
either a living wage per hour that they model, or they can choose to be compensated in images.
That way the people who, they're not hard up, you know, but they really want to see
themselves and be able to keep those photos, as opposed to just watching them, for them
to appear on Instagram or whatever, or look at them on the site. They can receive the
high resolution images and they can get them printed, they can put them in an album, whatever
they want to do. Or they can choose that living wage. And that also helps people access this.
It gives them the ability to work with a professional photographer to represent people like them
with bodies like theirs. And, and, you know, that's not just fat folks. I've worked with
some absolutely amazing trans folks with some people, some black and other people of color
who are, whose bodies aren't as big, but it's, it's really important to represent them too.
And some black super fat folks. And, and, you know, super fat folks of color don't mind,
don't get me wrong. But, you know, I try to focus on the most, the fattest people because
that is the biggest need that hasn't been built. But at any rate, it lets people access
that who otherwise, who would never be able to afford working with a professional photographer
and wouldn't even necessarily be able to afford the bus fare to come be a stock photo model.
And so, so pain in that living wage is really, really important. But that's when you have,
say 15 people in a, a fake yoga class that you've put together, that's a lot of money
really fast. And so, so it took, it took a really long time, years and years for the
stock photos to even like to break even as far as costs. And so, so on a good, on a good
month, you know, let's be open. On a good month, I'll make a few hundred dollars total
from stock photos as part of my revenue streams. On a bad month, it'll be, you know, just a
few dollars. That, that number does slowly grow over time, which is good. And either
way it's worth having the work, the work is worth it no matter whether it supports me
or not. But to be able to do the work, I do require some kind of support if that makes
sense.
Absolutely. Well, it's, I mean, I'm a really big fan of Kelly Deals. I know if you've heard
of Kelly, yeah. And you know, she talks about, look, if you're running a, you know, a feminist
business, the feminist has to be able to thrive too. You know, like the, the owner. I'm so
glad to hear that it has grown and it's continuing to grow. And I think, and thank you for being
so honest about like, it took years to get to that point. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And, and the people who, the people who subscribe to my Patreon, which right now
is my primary revenue stream. The people who subscribe to that, if you're interested in
that, I won't give you the sales pitch right now, but there are a ton of, there are a ton
of benefits and rewards from being a Patreon supporter beyond the warm fuzzies. But the
warm fuzzy end is that the folks who are on the Patreon subsidize efforts like the stock
photos, because that is where the money comes from so that I can pay my share of the bills,
that I can pay my share of the mortgage and, and be able to do this work and not be doing
it in bits and pieces on the bus while I'm commuting to a full-time job, you know? And,
and so, uh, because I've done that, I can't, it's not sustainable. And so, so that allows
me on one hand, it allows me to, to do this work, but on the other, I've realized as I'm
speaking that I'm falling into describing this as if it's a charity project. It allows
me to play. No, it's work and it's just valid as a CEO, what a CEO is doing. I'm lecturing,
I'm lecturing myself in real time. That's so good. It's hard not to fall into it though.
I feel like this is one of the challenges perhaps of, of both being a solopreneur, but
also kind of that activism thing. Like you said, like people, it, we, we kind of assume
it's just happening. It's like, no, like, I mean, I, I have learned this the hard way
running a podcast. It is blood, sweat and tears to create this podcast. I am shocked.
I'm very glad I did not know how much work it would be when I started it. And I do, I
have to fit it in the corners of my life. I'm trying to figure out how to monetize. It's
very challenging and, and it's a real, there's a real, it costs a lot of money every month.
And so yeah, there is a real impact on, you know, and this is where I think Patreon is
so wonderful. And in my case, I have Patreon and also the Apple subscriptions because it's
like people who want to see more of it, people who want to support these efforts have a beautiful
way to do so. So I'm so glad that, that you're receiving that support for, yeah, being the
CEO of your company. Amazing. Wow. For the stock photography, is there like a next stage
or do you just keep adding? Like what's your dream for it?
Oh, there's, there's two next stage, two parts of the next stage, I think. I'm actually still,
so let's see. As we record this, it's late March, 2023. And I am still in part because
I've had a couple of injuries that have, has sidelined me a bit as far as my ability to,
to do computer work lately, but I'm still processing and uploading photos from before
the pandemic. So even though I have not photographed any, any new stock photos during the pandemic,
I have, I'm still churning out new things because they're, they were backlogged. But
I have not been able to do new stock photos during the pandemic because part of my, my
ethical framework of doing the least harm possible in this work is not putting people
at risk. And, and then I was injured and cut in. So part of my next step is hopefully to,
to be able to mask up and start doing some more new photos. And the other is that I'm
really trying to get more publicity for it because I also spent speaking of expenses
and, and blood, sweat and tears behind the scenes. To have a functional site for stock
photo sales, you need a backend that will automatically create different resolutions
of images for you that will allow people to buy credits and use credits. All of these
things that being a one person business, it, you know, it took years to get the backend
of the site because I'm not a developer. And so it took years and being married to a developer.
Oh, thank goodness. To get the site to where it was as functional. Cause you look at, you
look at any other stock photo site, if you look at iStock or Getty or Dreamstime or whatever,
to get it to that functionality, to even function like one of those, being one person, you know,
I'm pretty proud of that. But so the, the, the, the framework is in place, the tech is
in place. And so now I need more traffic essentially. And so I'm, I'm really trying to get media
attention and to try to get publicity. And so, so it's sort of a dual, cause I always
want to be turning out new things. And before we started recording, you were talking about,
talking about trying to find stock photos of fat children who were just like living
their lives and not being overly depressed or weirdly excited or whatever. And right
now I don't have any photos of kids except for a few of kids doing family yoga. And so
there's so many, there's so many topics that need to be filled. Right now I don't have
any healthcare. I desperately need healthcare photos. I desperately need photos of kids.
There are so many needs. I'm also trying to get more contributors so that we can fill
these needs because you know, the more perspectives we have, the better. And so I'm, I'm always
trying to recruit contributors as well. Right now I have five or six. Amazing. Oh, I love
this. I love this. I, you know, I, it, on the one hand, and this is, I guess maybe,
I don't know if other people feel this way, but on the one hand, I really take photography
for granted. And then, you know, and I don't really think about it too much. I don't really
think too much about the images I see as I've moved throughout my day. And then I'm in a
meeting for a company that I do leadership coaching for and the marketing department
is unveiling their beautiful new branding. Here are all the diverse ethnicities and no
diversity of body. And I'm like, ah, okay. Do I be the fat person who says something,
writes a little note on Slack to the marketing team? And do I have anywhere to direct, anyone
to direct them to, you know, for those? And of course I know, I think of you, but it's
just like, it's when I'm then confronted with it in a place where I feel like it should
have been thought about, it should have been done differently. I think about this when
I see like medical, I've been spending a lot of time in medical facilities lately because
I have anemetriosis. I'm like in and out of gyne offices, which are, you know, and my
family doctor and blah, blah, blah. And like, it's all, there's no, there's no size range
of bodies that are presented in images. And so it's interesting on the one hand, it seems
like a little thing, but it's actually a huge thing to see those images. And we know research
has shown us that the more variety of bodies, skin colors, physical, you know, whether someone
is in a chair, whether, you know, just physical differences as well, the less unconscious
bias we have, the more tolerant we are, like it's all such good stuff. And I'm, yeah, I'm
just, I'm kind of like, what's in my heart is like, I'm just so grateful for you doing
this work. I'm grateful for your efforts because I've been watching your efforts for years
and it's really worth it. It's really worth it.
It really is. And then it's, it's, it's such a good reminder to hear that on, you know,
days when, when I, when I've been getting Twitter trolled or days when, days when I
have a new software expense, but I'm like, oh.
I just did my taxes today. My account was like, what happened last year? I'm like, Shannon,
I started a podcast. She's like, say no more. Like, oh my God. I'm curious about trolls
for you. I'm always curious when people are like kind of high profile and they get trolls
because I'm now starting to get trolls. How do you deal with them? Cause I'm determining
what my solution is right now. I just delete them all. Do you like engage? Do you delete?
Do you educate? Like what's your approach to trolls? Oh, I feel like we could do a whole
podcast on this. I really think we should. Yeah. My, my, okay. I'm going to tell you,
I'm going to tell you what I do and then where it comes from. So delete and block, delete
and block, delete and block. It's not a democracy. Right. It's my page. That's what I feel too.
I'm like, fuck you. It's my page. You don't get to come here and be an asshole. Yeah,
exactly. Like it's my living room. You don't get to come in and poop on the floor. Yes.
Oh, I like that better. Oh, that is so Southern. Where, where did you were up in the South?
Hickory, North Carolina. Oh, I lived in Millichville, Georgia for a while. So talking to you, I'm
actually noticing I'm trying to stop the accent that I had from coming out, but it's wanting
to Lindley. I could talk like this and just do the whole interview in this Georgia's accent
that I developed when I lived down there, but I'm going to like try to rein it in. Right.
I know. I kind of want to say y'all a lot. Yeah, I'm feeling it. Okay. So delete and
block and where does that come from? Well, two reasons. Uh, one, I'm, I'm very clear
or I try to be clear that I don't do a lot of one-on-one level education. There are people
who are wonderful at, uh, taking, taking other people down the path of knowledge from being
extremely invested in diet culture to rebelling against that. I'm not that person. Me neither.
I'm so glad to hear you say it. Cause I always feel bad. Like I should, I should be that
person. I'm not, I'm not patient enough. I think we all feel like we should in part because
in part because there are so many concerned trolls out there who were like, I'm just asking
questions. Um, and, and then again, there are people who, who do that. Uh, Reagan Chastain
is wonderful for that. Jess Baker is wonderful for that. Virgie Tovar is wonderful for that.
Um, there, there are people out there who are both excellent at it and thrive on it.
That's not me. And that's okay. My work is for the people who are ready for it, which
means that some people will come in and they'll be horrified and then they will self-select
out and sometimes they're going to yell about it on the way out. That's fine. Um, and, and
then some people are going to come in and go, Oh, this is, this is where I'm at. This
is meeting me where I'm at. Um, but, but where those people are at isn't, isn't usually the
very first step and that's okay. So sometimes it is. And sometimes people are ready for
that leap too. Um, but the other thing is that I feel like I have a responsibility to
my community and the larger my audience becomes, the more serious that responsibility gets.
And if I am in the comments arguing with trolls, it means that those trolls are getting oxygen.
It means that those comments are staying up. And now sometimes, especially on Facebook,
um, because of course moderation works differently on every platform. Um, sometimes sometimes
people will find a troll comment or a concern troll before I get to it. And there will be
a giant discussion and I may choose to just block that person, but leave the discussion
up because other people did a lot of labor already. Um, but in general, I don't want
my, my audience, my readers, my community exposed to that stuff, you know, and not only
can they, you know, is it everywhere else, but, but, you know, why not have my space
be the space that is safe from that? Um, and then the third thing is that I, over time
I finally learned that in general, people who, people who are engaging negatively, they're
not there because they can be convinced they are there because it's an exercise of power
and control and a threatened privilege to see other people who aren't invested in the
same systems they are. Um, but they're not there because they really want to have a discussion
about it. The people who are there for discussion generally you can tell. And so I just delete
and block, delete and block, delete and block. I love it. That's very similar to the strategy
I've been taking. So it's actually very justifying to hear like, oh good. Yes. Yeah. Yep. I love
it. So from trolls, we're going to go to bringing fat joy into the work that you do. So tell
us how you do that.
Yeah. When, when we were talking about this pre recording, uh, I ended that I, I had sort
of ended up dividing this in my head into my photography work and everything else that
I do because the approaches are quite different. Uh, so in my photography work, when I'm working
with people and, and this is the same for clients who come in for a boudoir or small
business branding or portraits, uh, or stock photo models. Um, so much of it is about making
space for joy. And I realized that that sounds very trite, but, but there are solid things
that I ended up doing to help create that space. Um, part of it is honoring people's
bodies wherever their bodies are at that day. Um, I quite often I'm working with people
with limited mobility and that's okay. Um, now that I'm in my forties, I have days of
limited mobility myself. I turned 40 and my body was like, hello, this is now a new era.
Did you find the same thing? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I started every time I, every time I am on
location somewhere for photography. Now I bring a folding stool because if, because
if, if, if my client doesn't need it, I'm going to need it at some point. So, so, so
honoring people's bodies where they're at and, and honoring on not just honoring what
those bodies need from like, I need to drink a water standpoint, but also a, um, not expecting
more out of those bodies and those bodies are going to be able to give that day. Um,
making it literally making the space for, okay, if we're going to, if I, if it's a
60 minute session and we have, uh, and this body is, is telling me through this either
because this person is expressing their needs or because I'm reading their body language,
they're telling me they've got half an hour in them. That's fine. We'll space that half
an hour out. We will take lots of breaks. It'll be fine. Um, and so they're not pushing
their bodies in ways that are going to make them unhappy on the spot. Uh, and if you are
unhappy or uncomfortable on the spot, it's going to show in the photos too. And your
experience is going to color the way you see those photos. Um, but the other part of it
is leaving space for whatever emotions come up. Um, I worked with a client last year who,
uh, we went out into this beautiful park in West Seattle and we stood on the pathway,
uh, in the woods, in this beautiful park, in the sunshine. And she cried, um, because
that was the emotion that came up for her in that moment. She was going through, you
know, a hard period in her life. And, and I know that doesn't sound like it's about
joy, but that release, um, and of, of honoring that release by, with her consent, you know,
I mean, she's standing there crying, I'm checking in before I bring that camera up to my eye.
Um, but with her consent, I captured that, um, the, the photos are beautiful. Um, she
has, uh, elected to have those remain private, so they're not on my side anywhere. But, uh,
but then that opened up the space for some joy later on. Um, and the other thing is just
making sessions fun. Um, cause I'm, I'm a doofus in person. Like what you're, what you
are hearing here, you're getting, I'm a little, I'm a little spacey. I'm a little scattered,
um, uh, except when I'm being extremely organized, it's going to be one or the other. Um, but,
but we're going to laugh, we're going to have fun. We're going to take lots of breaks. And
if I'm like tripping over things and laughing about it, it's really hard to be intimidated
or, or afraid when, when I'm being a goofball. So just letting, letting that joy come out,
making that space. Um, and for my other work, um, so much of what I am doing is about correction
or about anger or about fierceness. Um, but I have the privilege to take that on so that
other people, fat people who are just living their lives can go have a good time. Uh, I
don't know what Dave and Buster's that night, uh, without, uh, you know, and they can bring
some joy into their life with some silly skee ball, um, just making up scenarios here. Um,
because I have done, uh, you know, because I have done the fierceness and the, the anger
and the powerfulness of helping them along their journey and also, you know, helping
other people not be fat, but, but jerks so that that fat person can go have some joy
with skee ball at Dave and Buster's and not get stared at or have a negative comment.
And so it, so it's really about balancing those scales in a way that, that I can do
for other people. Yeah. And that's such a powerful motivator. I mean, again, I'm, I'm,
I know people who listen, know this, like I started the podcast for that reason. I was
filled with rage. I was like, okay, obviously I need some joy. Let's do, let's have a podcast
about that. And it really is about, I'm not doing it for myself. I'm doing it for other
people for whoever's listening. And if it helps them feel one more sense of not like
belonging or, you know, gentleness towards themselves or a family member or a friend
or the world, like, yeah, that's it. That's it. That's the motivation. Yeah. Beautiful.
I wanted to ask you about your newsletter next, but before we do, I have a question
I really want to ask you, which is, is there, I find this in coaching. So I'm curious if
it's the same in photography. When I'm coaching people, there's often a moment where I find
like the client has some realization and surprises themselves. And I'm like, that's it. That's
the microsecond. That's why I do this. And it's like, I get filled with pure joy and
excitement for them. Is there a moment like that? Is your photographing people where you
just see, because I've had boudoir photography and I remember the moments that I had when
it was done of where I was just like, I'm like, I am the sexiest goddess in the world.
And it was just like, I'd never felt like that kind of power. But again, it's this rebellious
power because I think that's what really works for me. And I'm just wondering if there is
like, do you have that when you're with clients? I think it depends on the person. Yeah, it
depends on the person. It depends on the context. Because I have everybody, a whole range. I
have a range across people who are just starting to see, to be willing and able to see themselves
on camera, even in just like a beautiful, gentle, fully clothed portrait in a very traditional
position all the way up to people who are like, I'm naked, I'm coming. You know, let's
do it.
That is my next challenge. I'm dying to do a naked one. And I, but I haven't yet.
Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, so it's, and the thing is that it's not just that the people
who are at the earliest stages of that journey can have those moments, but it's so much depends
on the person, where we are, what we're doing, how nervous they are and how much they're,
you know, how much they're releasing in the moment. Sometimes, sometimes there will be
something like that during the session of that, that moment. I had, I had a, a Bedouin
client last year who I had her standing in my, my home is also my photo studio and I
had her standing inside my dining room window in bra and panties. And she's this beautiful
round around belly and a tattoo right on her belly. And, and I was like, I want to focus
on that. Like, you know, just in this beautiful natural light. And she said, Oh, and you could
just see like that moment on her face of not only is it worth focusing on, but here's this
fancy pants professional photographer. He was like, hold still your belly's amazing.
And then sometimes, sometimes it'll come out when people see their photos. And I, cause
I always sit down with people in person or since the pandemic it's been on zoom because
we're being very cautious. But, but I always sit down and support people the first time
they see their photos because it's a very vulnerable experience. And so sometimes like
the second somebody sees it might be the first photo. It might be the 50th in this extension,
but sometimes there'll be that moment when people see the photos and then, and then sometimes
people, if people are having one, they hide it and I don't know, but yeah. Oh, it's amazing.
It's so neat to be with people in those moments. You know, what a gift that you get to hold
that space for them.
Okay. Newsletter. So your newsletter, I have, I imagine that so much labor goes into it
because you write, you have links to all kinds of amazing fat events and things that are
going on in the fat activism space. And it's just, it's so meaty, Linley. So I've always
been really curious. Like what does it take to actually create this newsletter?
Well, one of my autistic superpowers is, is, is this sort of information collection and
sorting. I love collecting things. I love sorting things. If you are, if you are watching
the video, you can see the plant that's beside me. I have about 70 or 80 more that you can't
see. And I like going to rearrange and all my plants. I like, I love collecting pretty
images off the internet and sorting them. It's very, it's very much a stimming thing
for me to collect things and then sort them out and then sort them a different way. So,
so I, I was taking in and sort of mentally processing this information long before I
started creating a newsletter format out of it. And I sort of had these scattered, I had
the calendar on the website as a post that I was updating. And then I had, I had links
here and some posts about that and other places. And, and Kelly Deals actually was the one
who said, Lindley, turn that into your newsletter. Why are you putting this all over the place
where people can't find it? And, and yeah, that was an absolutely genius suggestion.
And so that was how the newsletter got started. I was like, yeah, I can put that all in one
place. That's fine. And so it does take, I don't know, it's hard to say how much time
it takes overall because, because in my work, I'm spending a lot of time with social media
anyway. And so I'm just seeing these things as I'm scrolling Twitter or scrolling Instagram,
whatever. And I'm just noting them as I come across them. But it takes, it takes probably
a few hours to then put all that in a usable format. And then the writing ends of it, it
can take anywhere from five minutes to a day. Because I often have things sort of simmering
on the mental back burner until usually somebody will take me off on the internet and then
it coalesces into rage. I love it. Someone is wrong on the internet. And rather than
arguing about that, about it with that individual, I turn it into a lecture for my newsletter
or for Patreon. That's perfect. That's perfect. Well, I'll definitely include a link to the
newsletter and everyone listening should subscribe. It really is done so well, Lindley. Thank
you. Yeah, it's a lot of it's I enjoy doing it. There's never a week where I go, oh, I
don't want to do a newsletter because it meshes so well with my personal style and preferences
anyway. Yeah, it's so great. Yeah, like it's opposite of what my strengths are. So I would,
because I thought I should have a newsletter and I go, oh, yes. Whereas I will do a full
day of what we're doing right now. No problem. And we need people with all these different
strengths because I would rather stab myself in the eye than do audio editing. So it works
out really well. It does. It does. Amazing. So I want to bring us to your connection to
Joy Lindley. What, how do you feel about joy? How do you bring joy into your life? And we
know how you'd bring it into your work. What about for you personally? Yeah. And when it's
so important personally, because again, I'm going to be a little bit trite and talk about
how you have to fill your own cup to pour into other people. Working, working through
therapy, honestly, therapy is there. It was going to be a whole sentence, but it's really
just that one word therapy, therapy and anxiety medication, because I assumed everyone lived
in a state of panic all the time and it turns out that's not true. And so a few years ago,
I started coincidentally, it was right after the pandemic started, but it was a process
I had already been working on. I just started taking anxiety medication and that opened
up so much space for pleasure and joy and compassion and empathy in my life. Because
it turns out when you're not activated all the time, you can access those things more
easily. Working through my own body shaking, my own mental stuff, honoring my own needs,
again, is making the space for that. And then finding the things that brought me joy as
a kid. Oh yes, going back to those. Yeah, because I was an extremely nerdy kid. I'm
a pretty nerdy adult. But so much of that was met with societal or familial or whatever
disapproval. I'm 42, 43, 42 years old. And I love shiny rocks and stuffed animals and
shells and plants. And again, just off camera, I have a whole aquarium that's a giant terrarium
now for all my shiny plants. And I have a whole cabinet behind me full of shiny rocks.
And I go to the beach here outside Seattle and I pick up rocks and I buy stuffed animals.
And I just generally have returned to those things that brought me joy as a kid. And I
have found that that is so reliably a way to find joy as an adult too, now that I'm
allowing myself to access these things that are uncool.
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Oh, I love that. Yeah, that you're making me think, because I'm also
a 1980s baby. I'm 42, about to be 43. And I also collected all those things. Like as
you're listing it, I'm like, oh yeah, I used to tumble my own rocks and I had sticker book
collections and yeah, my mom, even when I was, do you remember scratch and sniff and
puffy stickers and not, and oh my God, I feel joy just even thinking about them. So you're
actually making me think, oh, is there some, is there a version of that that I have not
engaged in that might be useful? I love that. All right. Everyone listening, think back
to when you were a kid, what did you love to do? And what's like a flavor of that that
you can bring in? That's your homework for everyone who's listening. Bring something
that brought you joy as a kid into your life this week. I love that, Lindley. You are wonderful.
I'm so honored to have been able to talk to you. I just, you're such a beacon of light
in the world for fat liberation and body acceptance and just, yeah, fat person doing cool shit
in the world, which is kind of like why I started the podcast. So thank you for being
a nerd and sharing your nerddom with us and all your gifts. I'm just, yeah, it's been
wonderful. Wonderful to have you on. Thank you so much.
Before we go, I'd like to read a poem because poetry can reach our hearts in a different
way. Poems can have us feel in a different way. And that's what this podcast is all
about. Expanding our hearts, deepening our empathy, and inviting in joy. So each week
you get a new poem. I loved hearing how Lindley's business grew as she was invited into more
spaces to share her expertise and her perspectives on fat liberation. It felt organic, it felt
playful, and it also really feels like a lot of trust. Trusting in herself, trusting in
what she's doing, having a place in the world and worthiness as well. And that feeling that
I got from Lindley, I feel when I read this poem. It's called Dawn Revisited and it's
by Rita Dove.
When you wake up with a second chance, the blue jay hawks his pretty wares and the oak
still stands spreading glorious shade. If you don't look back, the future never happens.
How good to rise in sunlight and the prodigal smell of biscuits, egg, and sausage on the
grill. The whole sky is yours to write on. Blown open to a blank page. Come on, shake
a leg. You'll never know who's down there frying those eggs if you don't get up and
see.
Thank you for joining me today. My hope is that you're feeling a little less alone and
a little more seen. So until the next episode, you can find me on Instagram at fatjoy.life,
on YouTube at youtube.com slash at fat joy, and on Patreon at patreon.com slash fat joy.
Please do check out the show notes for how you can connect with my amazing guest and
for the links to the poem. All right, lovely. I am sending you off with my best wishes for
an abundantly fat joy day. And I look forward to talking to you again soon. Bye bye.